John Ziegler takes us on a profound exploration of authenticity as a spiritual practice. He highlights the importance of showing up fully as oneself, whether as an elder or a young person, and honoring the wisdom inherent in every stage of life. John discusses how reverence can be expressed through intentional listening, genuine greetings, and creating spaces where truth and connection can flourish.

Transcript

John

Am I mucking it up? Are we stirring the pot? Are we thinking about critical thinking in the spaces that we’re in? Are we making, not so much uncomfortable, but are we in a space or the community where we’re not doing the same thing that’s not working?

Ceasar

Hey, Ayushi

Ayushi

Hey, Cesar, we’re here. It’s been a long time.

Ceasar

It’s been an incredibly long time. We have, we’ve gone through COVID. We’ve gone through so much since we have been together. The world has really like just.

Ayushi

The world’s in a very different place now.

Ceasar

different place. And even today, you know, all over, people are just struggling with really important things. So, we’re glad that you’re here joining us, everyone. Sorry for the delay, but… Thank you for your patience. Thank you for your patience. Everyone, we were waylaid by COVID and then, you know, pulling up the energy to get things done. But we’ve done the shows. It’s just taken us a while to get it all together.

Ayushi

And here we are getting back to you on a weekly basis with season three of the podcast focused on

Ceasar

Reverence.

Ayushi

reverence.

Ceasar

And it’s really interesting in this particular season, because we’ve gone back and forth on this. We started out by looking at faith, spirituality, and religion, and what it meant in terms of the kind of public sphere and public dialogue. And after much back and forth, we settled on this notion of reverence, because we think that’s what all of these things really are calling for us to bring, both to our personal lives and to our interactions with each other.

Ayushi

That’s right. And actually, a fun fact for our listeners, we recorded each of these episodes about Reverence over the course of the very turbulent past two years we’ve had as a society. And hopefully you’ll have the opportunity to reflect with us on the way that Reverence showed up for you and for each of your spaces, as we’ve been able to do.

Ceasar

And with that, welcome back to season three. Hey, Ayushi

Ayushi

Hey Ceasar!

Ceasar

So, we’re going to introduce our audience today to a conversation we had some time back with John Ziegler. Yay! Yeah, I was really excited when we had that conversation and listening to it again, just, you know, I think the world is ready for it, and so I’m excited. You know, he’s been someone who’s worked in higher education, he’s worked in foundations, and yet he’s always kept himself on the ground with people and really dealing with this issue. What does it mean to show up with a sense of reverence in the midst of all the change that people have to deal with?

Ayushi

It was such a pleasure to meet him. Excited for our audience to hear.

Ceasar

All right, so let’s go listen to John.

Ceasar

John Ziegler is here with us. And John, it’s good to have you here. It’s good to be here. I met John when I did my four year stint in Chicago. He was one of the first people I met and we’ve stayed connected since then. But I think there are two things that have really are important to know about John. One is he really is someone who like just knows what’s going on on the ground in Chicago and tied to all these different kinds of community organizations. And people look at him that way. And there’s three things. I hope I’m saying this right, John. He is a person who’s also really connected spiritually to Africa and what that means and back to him. And then, you know, the third piece, he’s an educator. So you put those three together and you have a pretty amazing person and just a beautiful spirit and soul. Because our audience doesn’t know you, but just tell me a little bit about the work you’ve been doing over the last few years. I’m going to say the last few years, I know it’s been a lot. And if I said over your lifetime, we’d be here to have a whole season.

John

He was, you know, it’s like, I’m really dreading this, you know, that part of the conversation. What do you do for a living, right? I had the privilege of working at a university setting, you know, I’m director of the Eagan Office of Urban Education and Community Partnerships, which allows me to be in community in all different shapes and forms, and then thinking about the institution and its positionality in those spaces, and obviously working with students, but also working with community, and that sort of tug of war, right? I work in a spirit of advocacy and activism that’s aligned with Father Eagan. Father Eagan was an activist priest who organized with Martin Luther King and all those good things. He was on the west side, he was a thems and those sort of dude, but real pure Chicago, right? But what I really marvel at him is his ability to connect the dots. I mean, in one moment he’s in church basement, you know, on the west side, and the next moment he’s politicking with, you know, the archdiocese, and next minute he’s fighting there daily, right? All in the same afternoon. And so there’s something very, that connect the dots to create impact is always, I always marvel to that, and I think some of the work that I try to do is, you know, I always have the reflection that I was able to connect the dot, you know, to make it make sense to me, students, or community. I think the first time I met him, and I don’t know if I told you this, Ceasar, you know, I was working on a project called Hotep, hold on to every person. It was with Howard University, and I wasn’t really working at the Eagan there, to be honest. I was just working on this research project that Michael Bennett, as you know, bought me into, right? And I was doing some other work on the south side. And, you know, just got to imagine it’s snowing now, and, you know, and it was really snowy and cold, right? And I was walking to my car, this is on the campus to Paul, and I was walking to my car, and, you know, it was, I was trying to really trudge through the snow, and this dude comes across the street, right? And he says, Ziegler, Ziegler. And if you remember Caesar, there’s right across the street, it’s this church, and that’s where they feed the homeless, and it’s one of those sort of situations, right? And so I thought it was his home, one of the homeless participants who was coming over, and I was all prepared to give him a dollar, do whatever to keep it moving, right? But it was Father Eagan. And this is the only time I met him. And he said, Ziegler, I don’t know if you can cuss on this, right? But yeah, he said, Ziegler, have you started any shit yet? And I’m like, yo, who is this dude? And so, yeah, he has this Irish brogue, right? And he was a short dude, and he had his, like, not quite a hoodie, so I didn’t really recognize his face, but it was Father Eagan. And so I was confused, and obviously a little taken aback. But in reflection, and the work that I try to do, I always think about, am I starting any shit yet?

John

Right? Am I mucking it up? Right? Are we, you know, stirring the pot? Are we thinking about critical thinking in the spaces that we’re in? Are we, you know, making, not so much uncomfortable, but are we in a space where there’s students or community where we’re not doing the same thing that’s not working? Right? And so that he, you know, years later, I’m still adding to it. But it makes me think about that. So that aligns with the work I do. Also, Ziegler knows I work at the Golden Institute where I help one with the programs that are global programs and some of the local programs. I’m so privileged to be in that space because I do a lot of work, and as Ziezer shared in Africa. And so it allows me to really be intentional about working with global leadership. But it’s this thing about what sustainable tourism looks like for me, right? You know, working in townships and being intentional about that work is a very small space, and a lot of the people who have been coming, they want to work, right? And so really trying to align that, you know, and working in the spaces that I’m privileged to work in, and whatever the townships or the rural communities, and they stay at the guesthouse, right? And so that’s, that’s my then to be honest, that’s my passion, that’s my arc into whatever retirement might look like, you know? So that’s a little bit about what I do. Wow.

Ayushi

Ceasar, I don’t know where you’re, there’s, there’s so much. You go ahead, you go ahead. But I have to ask a question. I can’t help it. John, tell us more about faith and stirring up shit. Like I’m really curious how those two come together. Yeah.

John

All right, it just seems like an oxymoron for me, the intentionality of being deep into a space. You know, I think a lot of, you know, we’re, a lot of times that we’re in these spaces, like, you know, that it’s on the surface, you’re either othered or, you know, that’s the institution and you’re representative of the institution and whatever that might look like, right? But being intentionally in a space where it’s like these skins are being shedded off you to this, this, this thing that, that you’re sensitized to, it’s like, okay, I’m the only black man in the room and he’s all Latinas, right? What does that look like? The realness of that. And then where does that, where does that lead me to speak my truth in a space, articulate my authenticity? That to me is a spiritual space because then I’m real, I can be real and, and, and, and acceptance slings and arrows, perhaps of judgment until people really get to know me, right? And, and I feel that that’s a pathway to, that’s a, that’s a radical pathway to respect, right? I think that’s a radical pathway to, you know, understanding me and what faith would be in that regard is that I feel, I feel comfortable in my skin enough to speak my truth in that space, you know, and allows for the real work to be done, right? And, and so to me, that’s a spiritual space. And I also say this too, and I was just really grappling with this, and I don’t want to just put this on Father Time, but I think the older I get, the more reverence I get or think about these things when I’m young and just like, yo, I just end it, no? But when, when, when I’m older, I feel like the elder, if you will, and I always like just pushed away from the elder space, but yo, I’m an elder now, right? And so I accept that in the spaces that I go in. And so there’s an expectation sometime of shared wisdom of how they see me in a space, right? And so I think too about the work that I do in Africa or people that I know, they all have something that says, well, I see you, right? You know, in Cameroon, I forgot the ethnic tribe, but we had somebody, I don’t know if you remember, Ceasar, Sister Marie, you know, she was from Cameroon, and we would start our meetings off with saying, a chim, and a chim simply means I see you, you know? And so I see you, not just the physical, but I see you in spirit, I see you, and we’re connected to this moment. And it’s this thing of oneness, no? A she, you know, you know, and then so there’s always that thing. And so it makes me think about that. And in the spaces, I’m all over the place, but that’s kind of that acceptance of one of getting towards that elder space and acceptance, right? And what faith looks like not too long ago, I would think I was on the other side of that’s how I was thinking, I have reverence to elders, you know, the wisdom of the elders, and I’m going to sit down at your feet and just learn from you, you know, Yoda or whatever, but now I’m kind of that dude, right? And so it’s really interesting to be present that way.

Ayushi

Yeah, I was going to sort of zoom out for a second and, you know, ask you, what is a space of reverence? What does reverence look like? What is sort of a spiritual space look like? And I think if I’m hearing you right, correct me if I’m not capturing this, is a space where you feel able to sort of be or bring your full self. Is that how you would characterize a space of reverence?

John

It’s there’s something very sacred, it’s recognizing the sacredness and everything. Right. And I think that’s something about the African space that Ceasar alluded to, is that I really there’s a spiritual space and reading people and, you know, in Africa. You know, there’s an authenticity of your place in the community. Right. And and so there’s just a sacredness around that. There’s a ritual, you know, and I’m all into rituals. Right. And there’s a grounding, you know, that I appreciate.

Ayushi

Thank you for sharing that.

John

Yeah, I mean, you know, I had to really think about reverence this morning. I had all these aha moments where it’s like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. That’s it.

Ayushi

I think that’s the hard part, right? It’s just kind of putting a finger on what it is, because it is in the water that we move through regularly. And yet I think that’s sort of the challenge of this work is that it’s not labeled, it’s not marketed, it’s not sort of set aside in a clean little box, it’s actually baked into everything that we do and so much of who we might even be at our core. And so it is, I mean, what I’m asking you to do is difficult and I appreciate you sharing the ways in which you’ve seen and felt that sort of reverence.

John

And it’s not linear enough, so, yeah, so I thought about reverence too, in relationship to people who I don’t agree with, right? You know what I’m saying? It’s like, okay, so how do I listen to somebody? You know, if I’m really carrying the mantle of, of, of reverence, if you will, am I, how am I listening? Yeah. You know, how is the, my intentionality of like really connecting that way and giving an honor to what this person is saying, although they’re buck while crazy, but I’m giving, I’m honoring that space. And I think that’s something that I struggle with honestly, but, but I also think that’s something I’m intentional about trying to do better.

Ceasar

You know, you said something earlier, John, about arriving at this space, you know, this kind of this time in your life and everything. And as you were younger, you were a little bit different. But I also know you do a lot of work, you know, out in the community with young people. Do you? And if you do, how? And if you don’t, what does that mean? But how do you bring these issues to the young people that you’re working with? How do you help them kind of connect and realize, oh, this is a part of who I am also? And then being able to bring that into how they’re dealing with the things that they’re facing in their own life.

John

Yeah, that’s a good question. And to be honest, the older I get, the harder I try to do that, right? You know, where was effort was, I’m not going to say back in the day, but but then because I’m conscious of not objectifying space, I’m conscious of my adultism, I’m conscious of all these things where perhaps I didn’t have to check all those boxes, right? And so, and I’m also very conscious of the technology that’s being used in terms of relationships, right? I’m not of the TikTok world, right? And in the conversation, although I get it, but I don’t use it. So I’m aware of these factors, whereas maybe five years ago or six, I wasn’t, that wasn’t a necessary part of the conversation. So to answer your question, Caesar, I just have right. And that the whole thing about building social capital Rome wasn’t built in a day. And so my intentionality is not to try so hard to oversell myself in that space, right? And to build an allyship versus being one of them. And I think that that’s been, it’s been challenging, but a beautiful struggle because there’s so many new spaces now.

Ayushi

Are there ever times like that where you just don’t, you don’t feel reverent? Do you have a hard time finding that reverence?

John

Yeah, yeah, I do. It’s real talk. I mean, you know, years ago, I went through a rites of passage. And the person who was doing it for us, he had this whole thing, you’ve got to be able to let the E go. Maybe it’s my ego working overtime or something. And I have to be able to be to be humble in these spaces and let my ego and it’d be easy to say if it’s in some, you know, arch conservative space and they don’t believe in this, you know, sometimes those are the good conversations. It’s in, it’s in the communities that we champion, you know, it’s in the communities that we’re doing the work in, you know, it’s, it’s the whatever that the pastor who, you know, has a stake in a game from city politics and, you know, and all these things that that really malign, you know, our communities begin to arise and somebody’s meat, as you know, these meetings and those tend to be the tougher conversations because they’ve already had some other kind of conversation with somebody else that, you know, that is baked into how they’re going to proceed with whatever that’s going on in that community. Right. And so what I’m talking about don’t mean nothing. And so that’s the tough one. Right. You know, when it becomes systems, these other, these other kind of hardened, disconnected systems that people hold on to, but and, you know, are promised, you know, a gift, if you will, or a grant or whatever that might look like. I’m talking to that person thinking that I’m an allyship, but they have no intention of being an allyship. Right. And so that’s what I’m talking about. And that’s what I’m talking about.

Ayushi

You’ve hit on something there. It’s funny. I think when I, when I think about this question for myself, where does, where does Reverend sort of fall away? I do have to interrogate if the spaces of opposing identities, like you were saying, is, is, is the space, right? Or if it’s, or if it’s actually something else and what you’re hitting on, I think is really key here, which is it’s actually not maybe the, you know, opposing political identity or what have you. It’s actually this sort of systems layer that if an individual is aligned with or working within, whatever that systemic layer might be, whether it’s the necessity for funding, like you were saying, or something else that actually gets in the way of them being able to bring, like you were saying from the very first question from the first conversation, that sense of fullness that I see you, right? That prevents them from seeing someone else because they’re already coming in with biases or systems perspectives.

John

And you’ve already been marked as an adversary in that regard. You know, and the fact that in my case, coming from an institution. And so it’s not like I’m coming from a block club. So I’m more of a pain or thorn, you know, because to going back to Father Egan, you know, I’m mocking it up. I’m asking a question, right? The questions that don’t get asked, you know, or people want to ask that they don’t, you know, and and so that’s to me is the it’s a challenge.

Ceasar

A lot of what you’ve talked about, which has been really amazing, you’ve been telling this about yourself and how you move through these issues of reverence, and the importance of it, and of course your own journey to get there. I’m going to ask you about a particular incident that I don’t know, so you’re going to tell me the incident. I don’t know it. I don’t even know how to name it, but I’m just sure you have an experience as it relates to what I’m going to ask, which is, have you been in a position, like with folks where you realize they are in this sense of, I want to say, disagreement, a battle, and you just knew that if they were open to understanding that kind of spiritual part of each other, they would be in a different place? If they were just open to see it, whatever it is, that they’d be in a different place, and I think the other part of that that I want to ask is, and I’m not saying this in relationship to religion, but I’m saying it really in relationship to you kind of raised this question of reverence, and you talked about how people who in the community really kind of come at this from this institutional standpoint, so it may drop off for you. What happens with, and I’m going to lay this right at the square of young people, is it that they’ve dropped off this sense of reverence, they don’t understand what it is, and particularly people who are really going down a path that we know is not healthy for them or the community, and how have you worked with that? How have you talked about that? I can go on and on and on, but I don’t want to go on and on and on, and I know that some folks have been trying to do mindfulness stuff and bring that into the community as a technique to do it, but it seems like there’s a signaling there that there’s something kind of missing, and how do we create the spaces for people to bring that, to recognize that, to own that?

John

Yeah, those are great questions. Yeah, because we do mindfulness and all kinds of meditation. And sometimes it works, sometimes it don’t, and sometimes people just fall asleep. Thank you.

Ayushi

That’s me, not kidding.

John

It’s all good, it’s all good. I guess I’ll just address your first question. It was around, you know, people who are pitted against each other, but who are, we’re trying to find where’s the reference space for that. And, and perhaps me as an observer, or maybe in some cases a facilitator, you know, get to, get to a point. I think there is, for me, and I’m not saying it just, it worked, is that I tried to cut to the marrow and maybe this is all in a Linsky model. I’m not sure what the hell, but when they’re not with other folk, you know, they, they cast votes and yeah, you tell them, you know, but if it’s in a room with just them, right, where you can cut to the marrow and respect, and this may be, and not to say this works obviously, but I’ve tried it and done it, very successful, maybe not, but what is it that they really want? You know, what is it that, what is it that you’re trying, what is it that you want? You know, because sometimes when it’s articulated in those spaces, when you have audience, it’s the theater of it. You know, it’s, it’s the theater of that, of that moment. No. And, but when it’s a different story, not all the time, but some of the time I found when we can cut to the chase, right? And there’s, there’s some trust that’s been illicit enough for somebody to be somewhat real. I talked to the mayor and she said, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, right? They didn’t say that in the beginning, right? Now we have a different sort of conversation, right? You know, Polk brothers is one to give us some money, but we needed to do, that wasn’t part of the conversation, but I think where there is a facilitated one-on-one, you know, that, that elicits some trust because I guess the other piece is I draw to where these folks live in the community and you know, that are going on, you know, the violence, if you will, you know, all this shit, right? So are you going to prolong the agony or can we come to an impasse and get some stuff done? Right. And so I think part of that, I’m not sure if there’s a reference to that. There’s some sort of, some sort of agreement as they come back into a larger audience that some of the conversation is tempered down and, or it’s, it’s told a different way where it’s not instigating some, so it’s not provoking, you know, screaming matches, right? When nothing’s done, I’m simplifying it and I’m not saying that it always worked, but I know it doesn’t work. If I do it in a crowded room, it just doesn’t, you know, the town hall meetings, it ain’t happening.

Ayushi

Right. And now, Ceasar, I’m looking at you. I mean, that’s exactly why we’re here. Like why we’re doing this is somehow it’s so hard for people to take off the hat of their institution, of their performance, of their what have you, and show up authentically and say the things that they mean when they’re in a more crowded room, right? Whether it’s a town hall or just a meeting with more than one other person. I mean, I think I maybe know why that is as like Ayushi the individual, but it’s also so hard to put a finger on. This is the ego that you’re talking about. Yeah, what’s ego and reverence? Like how do those are those opposites? It’s kind of what I’m hearing, right? It’s like when you let the ego, that’s going to stick with me. When you let the ego, is that when reverence can fill the vacuum or fill the space, right? And that’s how you can then show up. Is that how that works?

Ceasar

You can’t let it go.

Ayushi

You can’t let it go, you can you can edit it. Yeah.

John

Yeah, but you can’t disassociate it completely. And because I don’t think people like to feel vulnerable in those spaces. I don’t makes one feel vulnerable, you know, not to have that ego. It’s a shield, the shield, right? Actually, in those spaces, you know, and again, I go back to power dynamics, you know, that’s in the full display sometimes. And then also people outside of that community might not know that pastor. I don’t want to just use the church in that community. There’s a power dynamic there and or the block club leader who has the most to say, but really nobody on our block really bigs are right. It’s a lot. It’s the loudest voice, as you know. And that’s a play on power and recognition. Right. And so, you know, and so I get it sometimes, but it’s it’s it’s to see it played out. I think even to get into a one on one, if you will. It’s in spaces, it’s it’s not easy because they have to trust you enough. And so what is your positionality in that space? Are you just a person who comes and listens? Or do you have stake in the game enough for them to, you know, say, OK, we’ll do this or to have a trusted ally that they both respect in the space as well?

Ceasar

I know we’re coming to the end of this. I want to just circle back to something you said that for me, yes, the ego is going to stick with me, but the other thing that’s going to stick with me that I think is actually counterintuitive for people is that it might be a little easier to bring a sense of reverence in the spaces where people are really different and much harder in those spaces where it’s closer to home. That’s real. Yeah. I mean, there’s something hopeful about that in some ways, right? Because some device that we have, we think those are the things that are impossible. But in actuality, what you’re saying is that, you know, there are things that we need to do inside our own community, inside our own spaces where we’re blocked also from bringing a reference in.

John

That’s so it, yeah. You know what’s interesting, I don’t know if this answers the question, but I did my own sort of, I guess now, reverence check.

Ceasar

I like that. Instead of a reference check, let’s see if you got a reference check.

John

I did a reverence check, man. As you know, like in Chicago, it’s like most, especially African-American community, it’s like most of the people are from Mississippi. So that’s like the, you know, the whole Great Migration and all that. And Westside, they’re from a certain part of, they’re part of the Jackson, the other part is more Delta, right? It’s like this whole thing, right? I ain’t from Mississippi, right? You know what I’m saying? My family is not from Mississippi. And so when I, when I’ve been to Mississippi twice, the first time I said, damn, this is like Ghana, right? You know, it’s like, I had like this whole fascination with rural and, you know, and people were just sort of the disconnect, but there’s a beauty. And I was like, I like the blues, right? You know, say, what is this? What is this? So I went back with the couple guys this summer and we did a, we did a trek through the Delta.

Ceasar

Mmm.

John

in listening to stories, right? We went into people’s homes, you know, we went into gut bucket, blues bars, you know, went to, you know, followed the trek of where they dragged Emmett Till, you know. We did that, man. And that, to me, grounded me in a refresher kit, if you will, of reverence. And then the piece for me is, how does the blues tie into civil rights? We disconnect the blues and civil rights movement. But, you know, I found that space. And talking about this, it is a reverence piece, because it is all built around faith, you know. And the possibilities of, and the blues brought that. It was incredible, just talking to 80-year-old blues musicians going and pouring live bass into Robert Johnson’s grave, and you know, yeah, you know, and Betty Lou Hamer, you know, all this, it was all, it was all there, you know. Yeah, and so I think for me, just the essence of that was grounding myself in the spirit of reverence again. You know, as Ceasar said, going to Africa, oh, I wish I could go to Africa all the time and get this. But we got it here, you know what I’m saying? And so, and that was my reverence check, talking to an elder on the porch, and she knew, you know, Sunnyland Slim or something, and yeah, I remember that boy, you know. Those stories, man, those stories, I’m like, wow. I came back full because those are the communities, that’s our West side, that’s our South side. Those, the connectivity, you know, they’re from Mississippi, that’s it.

Ceasar

Yeah, so if you don’t connect with Mississippi, it’s hard to connect with them, because that’s the through line for that. Yeah, thank you.

John

whatever the grades you know what I’m saying it was the whole food thing going on well Nathan went for it but you know I felt that well John that’s my story I’m sticking to it

Ceasar

I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us, this has been really great.

Ayushi

What a treat. Thank you.

John

No, thank you. It was fun.

Ceasar

And any last words you want to give us before you sign off?

John

No, it’s really good to see you, Cesar, and to meet you Ayushi, too. Yeah, cool, cool, fun, this ripping off of this, you know. Make me think about reverence in a way that I haven’t thought about it in a while. It’s something, it’s like one of those words that doesn’t just, you know, you don’t talk about it much every day. I’m like, now it’s going to have a shingle or something that says reverence before you come into my office.

Ceasar

I hope people, oh, go ahead.

Ayushi

I was gonna say, I feel like if nothing else, you’ve just allowed all of our listeners, but also, especially, I’ll speak for myself, the reverence check is now going to be top of mind for me. You know, it’s like…

Ceasar

for me too. Yes, that’s it. Get your reference check, yo. That’s right.

Ayushi

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Ceasar

We’ve got, I think we got a pair of concepts, you know. Let your ego and get a reverence check. John, thank you so much. Thank you, John. Thank you. Okay. Take care.

Ayushi

Thank you all so much for listening to that episode of Season 3 of We Who Engage. This conversation would not have been possible without sound production and editing by Dave Lushansky and Jeff DeWine. A huge thank you also to our team who supported us throughout COVID. Eli Epperson, Ana Perez, Nick Sprague, Mo Bradford, and Patricia Iregas.

Ceasar

Yes, and we also have to send a big thank you to the Silverberg family for their support for our launch event, which we’ve never done before. A belief in disbelief that was held at the MIT Museum, who really stood out for us to give us that space under short notice. And we also have to give a really big shout out to the MIT Department of Urban Studies and Planning, who’s been a supporter of this work from the very beginning and will continue to do so.

Ayushi

Thank you all for listening.

Ceasar

Thank you.